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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:11 am 
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I honestly think that Call of Duty will stick around.

If for some reason it doesn't, then it will pull a SF4. Not have a proper Street Fighter game since 1999, then release a new one almost a decade later. So maybe Call of Duty will take a break, but you better be sure it will come back in some way shape or form.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10 Most Insulting Things Video Games Charged Money F
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:53 am 
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Ax wrote:
Smokes, sorry but, I don't see how CoD has affected the industry all that much. I understand this game is mega-popular and there's been some games that have tired to be better at CoD's game than CoD itself (Battlefield, MoH, Homefront, all include CoD-style bits in one shape or form). But compare that to something like Minecraft (just as an example). Have you seen Xbox indie games littered with clones? Not clones of cube builders like infiniminer, but full on clones of minecraft. It's uncanny. CoD got popular and had a hell of a lot of people playing. It doesn't spawn that many clones or inspired games, because every fucker's playing CoD itself.


Four words: Fifteen dollar map packs. Sure, map packs weren't new to the industry when COD introduced their version, but look at the way things are now. It's heinous, but all sorts of games have followed COD's lead with this.

And I'm not being critical of Minecraft here, but honestly, how difficult would it be to make a clone of that game? Not really much of a technical accomplishment, is it? People will make clones of anything that works and is reasonably easy to make.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10 Most Insulting Things Video Games Charged Money F
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:55 am 
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Smokey wrote:
Ax wrote:
Smokes, sorry but, I don't see how CoD has affected the industry all that much. I understand this game is mega-popular and there's been some games that have tired to be better at CoD's game than CoD itself (Battlefield, MoH, Homefront, all include CoD-style bits in one shape or form). But compare that to something like Minecraft (just as an example). Have you seen Xbox indie games littered with clones? Not clones of cube builders like infiniminer, but full on clones of minecraft. It's uncanny. CoD got popular and had a hell of a lot of people playing. It doesn't spawn that many clones or inspired games, because every fucker's playing CoD itself.


Four words: Fifteen dollar map packs. Sure, map packs weren't new to the industry when COD introduced their version, but look at the way things are now. It's heinous, but all sorts of games have followed COD's lead with this.

And I'm not being critical of Minecraft here, but honestly, how difficult would it be to make a clone of that game? Not really much of a technical accomplishment, is it? People will make clones of anything that works and is reasonably easy to make.



Map packs are just DLC. Yeah they're more expensive and there's more of a demand for them but map backs have been around since like, the second halo or something. It's only the same as extra race tracks and extra levels, but specifically for this genre. I don't see innovation or a big leap. I just see what everyone else was doing, only in the way that would suit CoD.

Minecraft isn't technically a masterpiece for maybe a big company, however these are indie games that are released and coded in xna. Plus, I know the graphics are blocky but the detail of the environment is very little in terms of putting something like that together. But we're not talking about technical accomplishments here. We're talking about innovation, and that's done with the power of the mind, in come up with something that really changes and affects gamers. How many people would have been playing games LIKE minecraft if there was no minecraft? over 4 million and counting? I don't think so duder, honestly.

CoD, hower, I don't think it took a genius to come up with what it has to offer. Someone else would have done it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10 Most Insulting Things Video Games Charged Money F
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Ax wrote:
Smokey wrote:
Four words: Fifteen dollar map packs. Sure, map packs weren't new to the industry when COD introduced their version, but look at the way things are now. It's heinous, but all sorts of games have followed COD's lead with this.

Map packs are just DLC. Yeah they're more expensive and there's more of a demand for them but map backs have been around since like, the second halo or something. It's only the same as extra race tracks and extra levels, but specifically for this genre. I don't see innovation or a big leap. I just see what everyone else was doing, only in the way that would suit CoD.

What he's saying is that before COD map packs were reasonably priced, but when COD came along and offered you a map (that was included in the previous game) for $15 and got away with it, thats when everyone else followed suit.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10 Most Insulting Things Video Games Charged Money F
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
What he's saying is that before COD map packs were reasonably priced, but when COD came along and offered you a map (that was included in the previous game) for $15 and got away with it, thats when everyone else followed suit.

Any one got any examples of this? (Otehr games charging $15 for older maps)

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:09 pm 
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I don't have immediate access to a US PSN account, but I'd check out the Battlefield games, MOH, Killzone 2 and 3, maybe Rainbow 6 or whatever it is. Anyone fancy getting prices?

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:24 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
I don't have immediate access to a US PSN account, but I'd check out the Battlefield games, MOH, Killzone 2 and 3, maybe Rainbow 6 or whatever it is. Anyone fancy getting prices?

I don't think Battlefield did it, well not until back to karkland comes out for Battlefield 3 anyway. The last Rainbow Six game came out before any COD games re released old maps. Killzone 2 and 3 maps were only £4, nothing as rididulous as COD. Medal of Honor doesn't count as that's not even a game, I don't think they did it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Well, they were just longshots, considering I'm not a FPS player. But be honest, since COD started charging ridiculous amounts of money for DLC that came bundled with the previous installments for free (as the article said, zombies came with W@W for free, but cost a shitload of cash in... one of the games that came after), a whole load more devs have started charging extortionate amounts of money for shit that were either free the last time around, or are utterly pointless and/or overpriced.

Even Capcom got into it with the costumes for SSFIV (which do nothing for the game itself other than change how it looks), which were a fair few quid for 3 or 4 costumes. Dead Space got into it. FIFA has pretty much always been into it.

The only games who have had (in my opinion) right-price, worthy DLC, are Super Stardust HD, Burnout Paradise, MAG (an entirely new game mode with three new maps and more weapons for just over a fiver? Better than two old maps and nothing else for a tenner.) and possibly the LBP games (moreso the level packs than the costumes).

Next COD game comes out, just wait til the DLC hits, and see what it is and what its priced at. I guarantee it'll be old stuff for £10-£15.

And it'll sell like fucking hotcakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
FIFA has pretty much always been into it.

eh?

Blokeymon wrote:
Better than two old maps and nothing else for a tenner.


Just gonna clear this up -

Call of Duty 4 Map Packs - Infinity Ward -
Variety Pack - 4 NEW maps - £7.99 (I'm convinced it was cheaper when it first released though)
(if anyone wants to say that Chinatown isn't new because it's based around Call of Duty 1 map, can do so, but they'll look like a fool)

World at War Map Packs - Treyarch -
#1 - Again, 4 NEW maps with an additional Zombie map which added new new mechanics to Zombie mode (Perks-a-Cola and electric fences) and new trophies - £7.99

#2 - Just 3 NEW maps this time round and 1 Zombie map, which added new weapons, new enemies, new defences and new trophies - £7.99

#3 - 4 NEW maps and another Zombie map, the zombie map adding teleporters, weapon upgrading and new trophies. - £7.99

Modern Warfare 2 - Infinity Ward -

(Here's when the price gets insane)
Stimulus Pack - Three NEW maps and one updated map from Call of Duty 4 - £10.99

Resurgence Pack - Three NEW maps and TWO updated maps from Call of Duty 4 - £10.99

Black Ops - Treyarch -
First Strike - 4 NEW Multiplayer maps and one new Zombie map - £11.49
Escalation - 4 NEW Multiplayer maps and one new Zombie map - £10.99
Annihilation - 4 NEW Multiplayer maps and one new Zombie Map - £11.49
Rezurrection - 5 Zombie maps here, one NEW map and three old maps updated with the new mechanics - £11.49

Say if somebody bought every map pack available for each of the games, here's what it'd cost them per map -

Call of Duty 4 - £1.99 Per map
World at War - £1.71 Per map
Modern Warfare 2 - £2.44 per map
Black Ops - £1.69 Per map

Now comparing this with other games -
Killzone 2 - £1.80 Per map
Resistance 2 - £1.33 Per map
Uncharted 2 - £1 Per map
Call of Juarez - £1.99 Per map
Crysis 2 - £1.77 Per map
Far Cry 2 - 99p per Map
Homefront - 99p Per map
MAG - £2.09 Per map
Medal of Honor - £1.99 Per map
Socom Special Forces - 99p Per map
Socom Confrontation - £3.99 Per map
Warhawk - £4.79 Per map

(I couldn't be arsed to do anymore and I haven't the foggiest what the conversion rate for Xbox money is to £ so I didn't do Halo, Gears of War)
(These prices are just for maps, ignoring additional modes or features that may be bundled with them)

If you want to talk about how other games map packs may add additional game modes remember that each Call of Duty map can be played in every game mode, on Black Ops that's 11 game modes, not including Hardcore, Wager Match, Express or Team Tactical variations.

I assume the same for Modern Warfare 3, as well as being able to be played in Spec Ops which is completely different from the multiplayer too.

At the end of the day, what may seem like a ridiculous amount of money for a map pack is actually great value, especially for somebody that plays a lot of Call of Duty.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:14 pm 
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CoD4 map packs were free on PC, I think.

if that makes any difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Selling map packs isnt innovation.

A game being so popular that said dlc is being bought fotr high prices would also not ge innovation.

Seems the topic has shifted again.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:43 pm 
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to me innovation is a fundamental change.


SF is still a 2d fighter with combos and shit, COD is still an FPS with levelling up and shit, Zelda is still an adventure game with items and shit, Uncharted is still an action game with climbing and shit.

etc etc


innovation is dead and has been for ages.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Gonna have to call you on including MAG and Warhawk, which didn't just have maps, but whole new game modes and in the case of MAG, new weapons and armour.

But yeah, this thread is all about which introduced more innovations with every iteration in the series: COD or SF, which I think has already been cleared up...

Joe: when you say "fundamental change", would this apply to how the game itself is played? Cos pretty certain most of the SF games changed the way the game was played, SF3TS doing so more than any other in the series.

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 Post subject: Re: Who has been more innovative - COD or SF?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
Gonna have to call you on including MAG and Warhawk, which didn't just have maps, but whole new game modes and in the case of MAG, new weapons and armour.


As I said. besides COD still has more modes and weapons than both games.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10 Most Insulting Things Video Games Charged Money F
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:22 am 
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Smokey wrote:
Okay, I consider myself to be one of those COD-bashing hipsters, but looking at things objectively, COD: MW completely changed the way FPS games are done, and that influence has spread to other genres throughout the industry. Now, EVERYONE does killstreaks. Now, EVERYONE uses the perks system that COD introduced, sometimes without changing a goddamn word in the title of a perk. Now, fucking EVERYONE puts a zombie mode in their game. Now, EVERYONE that releases a game with a heavy emphasis on multiplayer releases map packs that are often mostly rehashed maps from previous iterations of that franchise. Now, many game developers are forgoing game length for popcorn gameplay, jumping from setpiece to bigger setpiece to even bigger setpiece, with little to no downtime in between for pacing. Why is this? Well, it worked for COD, so why wouldn't it work elsewhere? Even COD's biggest rivals in the genre, MoH and Battlefield, games that were touted for providing a different experience than COD, took their cues from COD with their latest installments.

SF may have changed the way fighting games are done, but if you're seriously gonna sit there and tell me that SF has had more of an effect on the gaming industry than COD, you are mentally ill.


There is so much wrong with this post, I don't know where to begin.


I'll just say it's obvious you haven't really played CoD or Battlefield or you'd know that they haven't really done much copying of eachother at all.

Lots of trash-talking from the companies and fans, but VERY different games.

Also, you make it sound like the arcadey Multiplayer aspects of CoD have become standard in all FPS games, when, I can't think of even one which has copied that model, actually (MAYBE MoH, never played it).

Most 'modern war' type FPS games have a ranking/unlock system where you can unlock new weapons and weapon mods. That wasn't CoD that introduced (or even popularized) that. That's been around since Rainbow Six: Lockdown on the first XBOX (in terms of the first time I personally saw it), and was made much more prevalent in Rainbow Six: Vegas and Vegas 2.

CoD's the only game I know that has a Zombie mode outside of the Undead Nightmare add-on for RDR.

CoD's Zombie mode is nothing more than their version of Horde/Firefight/Any Mode Where a Team Faces Waves of Enemies.

That shit's been around for a while.

CoD isn't the first to do the map packs and stuff either, but they're the first to raise the price without raising the content in the packs, and other company's so far haven't really followed suit.


CoD has evolved within itself a LOT, but in terms of actual 'innovation' within, it's pretty much limited to perks and Killstreak rewards, which so far I haven't seen make an appearance in any other FPS I've played.

The only effect CoD's really had on the industry is that it's sold a shitton of copies, and good on it for doing so.

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